Half of all policemen are thieves and half of all policemen are murderers. Does it follow logically that all policemen are criminals?

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ExtremeDating

Feb 14, 2013

To take the first definition, why "the action or crime of stealing"? Why not just "the crime of stealing"?

MetroTonPanton

Feb 14, 2013

@extremeDating :

 it looks as if deducing analytically that a bald man has no hair isn't without its pitfalls :

Fro the merriam-webster :

1bald

 adjective \ˈbȯld\1a : lacking a natural or usual covering (as of hair, vegetation, or nap)b : having little or no tread <bald tires>2: marked with whiteThat leaves some wiggle room for ambiguity about the total lack of hair on a bald man's head.
ExtremeDating

Feb 14, 2013

^ That's a fair point. The Oxford dictionaries I mentioned give "having a scalp wholly or partly lacking hair."

pseupseudio

Feb 14, 2013

i would guess that they're trying to differentiate between ways of using the same noun to indicate two similar but very slightly different things. theft is inherently a crime, but for instance you might wish to indicate that a person, having performed the action of theft, was as a result arrested for/charged with/convicted of the crime of theft.

or to draw a distinction highlighting that, theft being a strictly legal term, an action of taking only becomes a theft retroactively, the fact of criminal taking being proven.

to me it seems more likely to be unnecessary complexity.

 

ExtremeDating

Feb 14, 2013

COD/NOAD/(N)ODE: "[theft] the action or crime of stealing"

MWCD: "[theft] 1a: the act of stealing; specifically: the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it"

AHD: "[theft] 1.a. The unlawful taking of the property of another; larceny"; "[unlawful] 2. Contrary to accepted morality or convention; illicit"

uh, no. those definitions all define theft as a crime. they all make stealing distinct from taking by emphasizing that it is unlawful.

crime of stealing.

stealing is felonious taking.

unlawful taking, where unlawful means illicit and illicit means forbidden by law.

I've looked at this a bit more.

I still believe all three definitions are consistent with the idea of non-criminal theft -- say, the act of stealing in a (hypothetical) jurisdiction in which the act of stealing is not considered a crime.

Already covered COD/NOAD/(N)ODE's "the action or crime of stealing." I don't know whether you're right that it's an unnecessary complexity, but whatever it is, theft as "the action of stealing" is consistent with it.

As for the MWCD definition -- "the act of stealing; specifically: the felonious taking . . ." -- there's an important difference between that and your interpretation of it as "stealing is felonious taking." This is because "the felonious taking . . . " is intended to be "a common but highly restricted meaning subsumed in the more general preceding definition," not an amplification of the more general preceding definition:

Sometimes a particular semantic relationship between senses is suggested by the use of one of four italic sense dividers: especially, specifically, also, or broadly.

 [...]

The sense divider specifically is used to introduce a common but highly restricted meaning subsumed in the more general preceding definition

http://www.merriam-webster.com/help/dictnotes/def.htm

So MWCD is making it clear that the act of stealing -- and therefore theft -- isn't limited to felonious taking. Or they've accidentally suggested that.

As for the AHD definition, the problem with "unlawful" is that it allows for a (hypothetical) jurisdiction in which theft is a civil offense but not a criminal one. So the fact that something is "forbidden by law" needn't mean that it's a criminal offense.

pseupseudio

Feb 15, 2013

i think at best you've muddied the waters sufficiently that i can't strictly say they're clean.

your interpretation from AHD i think strains the bounds of logic. the question doesn't posit such a jurisdiction, nor does one exist - the world over, theft is either a crime or a nonexistent concept (non-criminal theft not being theft, but simple taking).

as for MWCD, i'd be inclined to apply the "limited" effect of specifically to "felonious," but in a different way than you do. while i hold that theft is inherently criminal, it is not inherently felonious - most thefts are midemeanors.

and in any event, we've both soared far beyond the question's intent. perhaps it would have been better phrased as "can you think well enough to entertain the concept of separate iterated halves?"

ExtremeDating

Feb 15, 2013

i think at best you've muddied the waters sufficiently that i can't strictly say they're clean.

Good enough for me. I admit the AHD case was a reach, but this whole business is mostly tongue-in-cheek anyway.

vector010

Feb 15, 2013

 

M_ss_ng-L_nk

February 4

^ Congratulations; you just flunked Logic 101, despite definitively answering the question:

That means that logically we can make no assumption of the distribution of criminals in the data set based on the information given.

 

 

Meh, actually I fail at reading comprehension.  Read it as "Are all policemen are criminals?" instead of the way it is written.

peterng

Apr 26, 2013

Consider an extreme case where there are only two policemen.  Policeman A is both a thief and a murderer while Policeman B is not a criminal.  In this situation, half of all the policemen are thieves and half of all the policemen are murderers, but it is not the case that all the policemen are criminals.

Shinzenbi

Jun 18, 2013

Fundamental theorem of logic: true conclusions can follow from false premises. 

IOnlyDateDorks

Jun 19, 2013

Someone close this thread... I think 5 years of replies and votes has answered the no longer a user OP's question by now.

Invisible_Hand

Jun 19, 2013

This isn't up for discussion. The answer is straightforwardly no. 

Mask_and_Mirror

Jul 14, 2013

It's a logic question and a very easy one.

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