smashingmayo

Jan 22, 2013

I see nyamuk changing the subject again since she's shown to be racist herself in defining racism as white on x.

Nyamuk

Jan 22, 2013

^^ True, but it's not just manufacturing. Service workers can organize too.

^ I'd rehash my explanation for why racism against whites isn't a thing but you wouldn't listen and would probably just resort to personal insults.

Happy?


pseupseudio

Jan 22, 2013

^ racism against whites is a thing. it is absolutely a thing, and you look like an idiot trying to deny that it's a thing.

it's just not a pervasive, institutionalized thing (in america), which can't be said of racism against non-whites in america.

service workers can also organize, but given our relatively decent labor laws have less critical a need than our third world manufacturing base.

Nyamuk

Jan 22, 2013

I was using the racism = prejudice + power definition. Obviously there are people in this country who are prejudiced against whites (I don't think anyone would deny this) and  if you want to call that racism, go ahead.

Talking about prejudice against whites a little like talking about the gravitational pull of the moon. Sure, it exists, and when discussing certain topics, it's really fucking important. But, if whenever someone is talking about the gravitational pull of the sun some idiot pops up and says, "But the moon has a gravitational pull too!" I would call that "not a thing."

Here we have people celebrating that in some significant ways, we have overcome the kind of institutionalized racism that, in living memory, had people legally barred from this type of opportunity, but all this guy can say is, "But isn't this celebration evidence of racism against whites?" And the answer is no. It's really not.

pseupseudio

Jan 22, 2013

don't be dismissive about it. "prejudiced against (race)" is racist regardless of what i want or don't want to call it.

and your analogy is horrid, simply because you're trying to dismiss the significance of prejudice against white people.

the gravitational pull of the moon has incredibly important effects upon our lives, despite the fact that it pales in comparison to the pull of the sun - and for that matter, the moon is closer.

if you want to say it's less impactful, just say that.

identity politics are politics at the core, and all politics are local. there are pockets of society (in the USA) where anti-white prejudice is most assuredly a thing.

if you'd like to draw a meaningful distinction, draw it where it goes: those pockets, for example, exist under an umbrella society, the architecture of which preferences white people. and that's more far-reaching, exceptionally so.

but either way, you're about a decade late. racial politics are useless when addressing the problems we face in society today, as are gender politics, and orientation politics will be fast approaching that result as they continue to succeed.

in the america (and most of the world) of today, class distinctions are the only thing which truly matters. 

so long as you're fighting the identity fight, you're not fighting the wealth fight, and that's exactly how the enemy want it.

which is perhaps why the enemy post threads like this.

Nyamuk

Jan 22, 2013

How about you try reading what I wrote before having a hissy fit? I'm sorry I used a definition of the word "racism" that hurt your feelings, but that doesn't change the fact that it is an accepted definition among certain academic circles and at the end of the day, what we're talking about is the same thing. 

And how incredibly myopic to say that "racial politics" don't address the problems that "we as a society" face. Maybe they don't address problems that you or I face, but they very much do address problems that a significant plurality of the population do face. Or are you so incredibly naive as to believe that people of the same class are always treated equally no matter their ethnicity? 

So long as race can be used divide the working class, there can be no meaningful solidarity and thus no meaningful change.

rip59

Jan 22, 2013

Nyamuk, unions have diminished from roughly 12% to 8.  Why should $18 an hour production workers in SC let a union in to bring them down to their $9 /hr northern counterparts.  FYI starting wage at many northern auto plants has gone to $12 and a six mo wait for benefits that will probably transfer to part time o'care recipients anyway.  Bad times for working people.  Sorry.  What really burns is these new hires work right alongside highly paid older employees.  Same job.  Where are union bullies when they are needed?  Collecting dues?  Shilling for barry?  Why are unions exempt from o'care?

smashingmayo

Jan 22, 2013

lmao she changes the definition used in order to make the point. She's so not a troll, though. Ine does not have to have power to be racist. If you want to go on definitions, then racism itself is not a bad thing all the time, thus it's a crazy insult.

pseupseudio

Jan 22, 2013

^^^ jesus, shut the fuck up. you have no right to use the phrase "hissy fit" while acting like that.

mayo, she's not "changing the definition used." she started out using a definition which doesn't fit and stuck to it. she would have been better off to change the definition, but you can't mock her for something she didn't do.

racism IS a bad thing all the time, even when it seems to be positive, because it entails judging the worth of a person based on something inconsequential. it's bad because it's stupid.

and nyamuk, racial politics *don't* address the problems we as a society face. they're no longer progressive and no longer useful. i'm sorry if you don't like that, but it's a potential step in the right direction.

many things can be used to divide the working class - but even you recognize that "racial politics" come secondary to "divide the working class."

class politics are what's truly important. i know it, i espouse it, and you at least in your words recognize it.

the majority of race inequity is an artifact of wealth inequity. that's what we really need to solve.

"racial politics" doesn't address problems, not anymore - everyone's aware and there's no more value in "awareness-raising." at this point, "awareness-raising" means little more than "privilege people assuaging their consciences by yelling," and it does no real good.

race is, for the most part, an artificial divide. class division and wealth inequality are entirely real.

i'm not arguing that racism doesn't exist - in fact, i'm merely reminding you that it cuts in every direction, not just from white people outward. but i am suggesting that all of us who are interested in agitating and fighting the good fight have more important battlegrounds right now.

if racial issues persist in an equitable and/or post-scarcity economy, i'll be happy to take up the torch once more. for the time being, i think race is an inch-high curb and i've got battles to fight which are actually important.

pseupseudio

Jan 22, 2013

rip, you're trying to extrapolate an example from isolated incidence. try again, perhaps with the recognition that america no longer manufactures anything but branding, debt, and production contracts.

smashingmayo

Jan 22, 2013

by change the definition I mean use a far different definition than 99% of people use.

Now show me which of these says one must have power. She made up an isane definition which is not even listed in dictionaries. the closest to what she is saying is where it says they believe they SHOULD have power over the others!!!!

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

smashingmayo

Jan 22, 2013

Btw, TONS of instances of dummies on here calling mre racist have been due to comments which did not even CLOSE to fit any of those definitions. People here are ignorant and dumb.

Nyamuk

Jan 22, 2013

I think the first one to start slinging personal insults unprovoked is an ample target for the term "hissy fit."  I'm sorry you can't comprehend that there was a misunderstanding over a definition and felt the need to call me an idiot. You must be using an arcane definition of hissy fit if you think that shoe doesn't fit.

And who's awareness-raising? I'm talking about workplaces where awareness does not need to be raised because it's common knowledge that minorities get passed over for promotions and union shop stewards do nothing about it. I'm talking about purposely pitting immigrant scabs against American strikers because the boss knows one of them will start hurling epithets and discredit the whole thing. This shit happens. It's not "racial politics." And it hurts everyone.

Abd I agree with you that class is the important part. But that can't be addressed when racism is still used like this.

pseupseudio

Jan 24, 2013

mayo, i don't know what the fuck you're talking about. 

what i believe nyamuk and i are talking about is that racism in the US is systemic. we're talking about definition 2.

i realize you're sort of stupid, but don't quibble over the specifics of a written definition when one of your definitions contains "etc."

we call YOU racist because your comments reflect 1 and 3.

we call one another idiots merely because we disagree on the extent of racism and the reach and import of attendant politicking in the US of today.

i feel as though we both agree that you're an actual idiot.

Carnosaur

Jan 24, 2013

I have to admit, I like what pseupseudio is saying. Especially his last two longer posts. He its the nail right on the head. Congrats!

 

Class, wealth and high societal strata are what real privilege is all about.

After all, the powers that be like to keep as all divided and at each others throats....

Divide and conquer....

pseupseudio

Jan 24, 2013

race today is an artifact used by the wealthy to divide the poor.

that doesn't mean that it's not still a problem, or that the problem of racism is solved, or that race doesn't impact class, simply that wealth is the largest and most widespread factor in inequality.

rip59

Jan 24, 2013

He's right.  I agree.  Go make your own wealth. 

pseupseudio

Jan 24, 2013

the first step is to remove the barriers to your success.

for some it is a meager upbringing.

for some it is parental lack of concern.

for many it is the societally-endorsed banditry of the wealthy.

for the first two, you must stand and succeed in a vacuum entirely on your own recognizance.

for the third, carve your way out with a sword.

Nyamuk

Jan 24, 2013

So, Situation Sr., what's your excuse for business owners who have others make wealth for them without regard for wage or safety regulations?

smashingmayo

Jan 24, 2013

pseup proves again he's stupid by not knowing what someone's easy-to-understand point is.

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