Dec 10, 2012 9:18am

Oh, forgot — some kinds of trees can easily be created by using certain types of moss. Don't ask me to give the names, not good in that, but some hiking should give you plenty of inspiration (+ fresh air, I heard that's good for ya!)


Dec 10, 2012 11:55am

wow, that Pasi looks very roomy and comfortable.  and the top speed is awesome!

so did you ever drive one?  it looks like loads of fun.  it reminds me very much of the soviet BMP, as there are eight firing ports for the squad to look out of.  but your pasi looks very tough too.

not much of an armament.  I'm not trying to be offensive, like that sfguy, but I wish your pasi had some kind of anti-tank weapons mounted.

to answer your very thoughtful question... your main objection seems to be this: a wargame is not realistic in that the player can see things about the enemy with his own eyes which the battlefield commander on the ground would not see.  therefore, a less-than-honest wargamer could use his unrealistic knowledge of the enemy forces (such as the apache helicopter hiding behind a house until the time is ripe to pop up) to write orders to his units to avoid the area, or other interesting things to do.

here is how a good set of wargame rules will deal with that situation.  at the beginning of the game, before any units arrive, each player must write detailed orders for each platoon-size unit, or smaller if detached.  

such orders must be written in fairly specific language, such as:
"B" platoon of the infantry - take and hold the crossroads

tank platoon 7 - fall back slowly, firing from successive positions

orders may be changed during the game, but only if there is a valid reason for doing so.  if a players orders his zsu-23's towards that house where the apache helicopter is hiding, he needs some reason for doing this. and the reason cannot be because the player sees the helicopter.  either one of his units must have aquired the apache visually, rolling the appropriate dice to do so, because he can draw an unobstructed line-of-sight to the apache, OR the apache leaves his hiding spot and fires.  alternately, a remotely-piloted vehicle - observation aircraft could have done the aquisition.  and of course, both sides can use r.p.v.'s to see the enemy units.

now, until the player has rolled to see the apache, absolutely nothing can be done to the apache.  if you moved your zsu's up to the building, I could ask to see your orders to the effect that that was what the zsu's were supposed to do in the beginning of the game. 

I hope this answers your concern.  I feel it is an effective way to simulate battlefield decisions.

for the most part you can trust these wargamers.  I've never been cheated on like this in any wargame I've ever played.  of course, I did almost all of my wargaming with one college buddy who was very trustworthy.  

yeah, I think youre talking about lichen.  that moss looks just like tiny trees.  I cant find any around here, and even if I did, I wouldnt pick it.  the forests around here are just barely able to cope with all the human recreational activity.  I'm not going to stress out the little lichens.

Q-tips will work okay.

I wish I could play you in a wargame, leonard.  it'd be fun!


Dec 10, 2012 3:12pm


Aside: hi sfg and tell me where the fuck does this high-handed attitude come from? I thought all geeks had a healthy appetite for things that go boom? Or was I wrong about the geek part?




I am poking fun at you people, not "screaming at you to stop for the love of jeebus", it is you people who take yourselves so seriously that are getting all bent about it.

It's a public forum.

Whose subject was supposed to be "sapiossexuality".

And as far as "trolling" is concerned... man, really? When did you first get an internet connection, yesterday?

Calandale is a self-professed troll of the highest-order. He's probably being more serious here in this discussion than in the 4-5 years I've seen him post here. LULZ

Oh and just so's ya know: I have no malice towards any of you, until ya'll start taking yourselves too damn seriously as you derail some topic in a completely unrelated direction. :P

Now I've posted 3x more words than all my previous comments in this thread combined. Can't compete with you folks!




Dec 10, 2012 5:04pm

Calandale is a self-professed troll of the highest-order. He's probably being more serious here in this discussion than in the 4-5 years I've seen him post here.


Just shows how sad this forum hath become.


Dec 10, 2012 9:21pm




Dec 11, 2012 12:43am

frankly I only pity the poor guy.

a lot of people get very angry around the holidays

it is best to simply ignore it

and if he doesnt understand the relationship of our discussion to the thread, well, all the more reason to pity him


anyway, my mountain map is coming along very well.  I am however running out of glue.

and I worry that I dont have enough paint to paint the whole thing.

Q-tips I have plenty of.

I think I'll be able to shape pine trees from the wet, painted q-tips bu pulling the tips upward before drying


Dec 11, 2012 5:58am

 the relationship of our discussion to the thread

One reason for my willingness to speak on this at length (and I've done it
before on other issues) here is that THIS is one of the key things I require
in my women: they absolutely have to be able to enjoy a good wargame
now and then.

'Course, they also have to meet my other insanities.

Got one in the pocket right now, but still looking for another.


Dec 11, 2012 9:14am

Thanks you, LR, for the lengthy explanation. This does make a lot of sense and it also reminds me of Steel Panthers WaW, where there was a similar option (Command & Control it was called, if I remember correctly). I did not use it much, for lack of time and the sheer enjoyment of being able to shoot up Shermans, but I've always had the idea of going back and really mastering it. I would be very much willing to try something with a ruleset taking such dynamics into account, alas for the time again.

But in some ways you probably also misunderstood my concern, which was not only about battlefield awareness (and that is actually making leaps and bounds nowadays), but the command chain. Namely that at any management level you take decisions only some steps lower. Eg a company commander would most likely never assign firing sectors to individual troops, for that is not his competence nor his task to. In the same manner, a batallion commander would not deal with individual tank crews. The chain of command runs both ways and while it is mostly illegal to take action above your rank, it is mostly bad management (and that is what the military is about — human resources management) to take action too deep below your rank. Not to mention impractical — you'd drown in information in an instant.

So my question is: how do you handle this in a tabletop game, the fact many men call many shots on many levels in reality, while at the game board there is one player calling all of them?

Abd nope, I have not driven around PASIs, unforunately. My job in the past has been facilitating war games and that has been a whole lot of fun. The little gunpowder I have smelled comes from some infantry training, but I'd rather not talk too much about it, as it is not proper public board topic.

I am honoure by your invitation. Are there any turn-based, play-by-email type online games that you do play, LR, that we might at one point try to best each other at?

sfg: all fair & to each his own. But to answer your question, it was around early nineties.


Dec 12, 2012 12:54am


But to answer your question, it was around early nineties.


You weren't the one who made the silly claim that I'm trying to troll this thread.




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